40K VETERANS - CAPE TOWN TYGERVALLEY 21 JULY 2018

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Re: 40K VETERANS - CAPE TOWN TYGERVALLEY 21 JULY 2018

Postby q21 » Thu Jun 07, 2018 1:55 pm

Leave is already booked for the Friday and Monday each side of Vets. No last minute cancellations this time. At least 3 of my Elizabethan brethren will be joining me, perhaps a couple more. We are prepared to take ass and kick names. However...

*pull on rules-lawyer balaclava*

... some clarifications are in order.

1. One. I.
• -5 if your list has no ELITE units that are full strength **
• -5 if your list has no HEAVY units that are full strength **
• -5 if your list has no FAST units that are full strength **
** Of course, this will not count if the army has no Elite, Heavy or Fast units. Units of one, will not count, neither will units of a set/unchangeable size.

All of this is pretty clear until the last sentence. When you say units of set/unchangeable size (1 or otherwise) won't count, do you meant that they:
a) Won't count as a full unit, but you will still count as having a unit of that type in your army, hence you get the -5, or
b) That you won't count as having any elite/heavy/fast units if all such units in your army are of a set/unchangeable size?

2. Two. II.
• -15 if the total points of TROOPS is less than the total of any 2 other FOC selections.

The phrasing here can be parsed in 2 ways. When I first read it I interpretted it as one and on later reflection the other occured to me. Please clarify which is the case.

a) -15 if the total points of troops is less than the total of the 2 most expensive non-troops battlefield role selections in your army.
b) -15 if the total points of troops is less than the total of the 2 least expensive non-troops battlefield role selections in your army.

That's the only clarification I'm after for this rule, the rest is commentary/criticism/suggestion that you may feel free to ignore.

-15 comp seems too stringent in the case of a) above - bring a single big, cool unit and this becomes incredibly difficult for some armies to do (and encountering and fielding big, cool units, be they death stars or superheavies, is one of the draws of vets for me); in principle, I like the idea of punishing this to some degree, but 30% of comp seems a lot. Conversely, -15 doesn't seem harsh enough in the case of b) as some armies can manage this without any effort at all. Perhaps a) but with a sliding scale?

-5 if your total points of troops is less than the total of the 2 most expensive non-troops battlefield role selections in your army.
-5 extra (for a total of -10) if the total points of troops is less than 1/2 the total for the 2 most expensive non-troops battlefield role selections in your army.
-5 extra (for a total of -15) if the total points of troops is less than 1/3 the total for the 2 most expensive non-troops battlefield role selections in your army.

Like this you punish someone who just exceeds their troops points with their two most expensive units, but not to the point that they feel compelled to leave their favourite expensive model at home. Someone who decides to show up with 3 super-heavies and a min-troops CP farm, though, gets hit with the full deduction (and probably other deductions from other comp rules, too... dirty power-gamer).

3. Three. III.
• -3 for each unit in a primary detachment that is not above 50% full strength.
• -1 for each unit in a primary detachment that is not above 66% full strength.

Do these stack? A unit that is not above 50% is inherently also not above 66% - if I play 7 out of a possible 20 dudes in a unit am I getting a total -3 or -4 penalty for that unit due to the interaction of these two rules.


Anyway, if you could provide the clarifications above, that would be greatly appreciated.

*pulls off rules-lawyer balaclava*
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Re: 40K VETERANS - CAPE TOWN TYGERVALLEY 21 JULY 2018

Postby Brindley U » Fri Jun 08, 2018 4:44 am

Great to hear it matey!

To your questions:

1:
When i say "will not count" - i meant will not incur a penalty, but likewise will not count as a "full unit"
So, as a space marine player, say you have a unit of 8 devastators and a predator tank as your only heavies, you get the -5 for not having a full heavy unit.

2:

"any" is your key word there. Basically if any combination of other roles IE: Elite+Heavy or Heavy + HQ is more, then penalty is incurred.
Points and commentary noted, but would like to see how the stricter comp in this regard plays out this year.

3.
They dont stack. Should essentially be 50-66%


Thanks for the questions, bud!
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Re: 40K VETERANS - CAPE TOWN TYGERVALLEY 21 JULY 2018

Postby q21 » Fri Jun 08, 2018 8:30 am

Thanks for the clarifications.

Brindley U wrote:2:

"any" is your key word there. Basically if any combination of other roles IE: Elite+Heavy or Heavy + HQ is more, then penalty is incurred.
Points and commentary noted, but would like to see how the stricter comp in this regard plays out this year.


Wow, did I misunderstand this. Possibly from the word "selection" in the rule statement, but I thought it meant individual unit selections rather than whole battlefield role types.

The rule is clear now.... I just don't own enough troops to do this with any of my armies. Guess I'll just have to make the points up elsewhere in the tournament.
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Re: 40K VETERANS - CAPE TOWN TYGERVALLEY 21 JULY 2018

Postby Brindley U » Sat Jun 09, 2018 4:21 pm

Currently looking to two more small changes. WIll confirm by Monday.

VSF will have a -10 penalty, not -6.

Also, IG/AM will have a Troop minimum of 30%, and a Heavy maximum of 35%

(Also playing with the idea of making the "2 other battlefield roles" Troop ding slightly lower for IG - but the issue with that is opening up exceptions).

There too many variables I'm not seeing at the moment because i'm out of the loop a bit here in China. But, will have it more or less figured soon.
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Re: 40K VETERANS - CAPE TOWN TYGERVALLEY 21 JULY 2018

Postby MadDok-Norbert » Sun Jun 10, 2018 10:56 am

Hi

May I comment on your last post.

I am a believer that rules for VSF should apply to all with no exceptions.

Why single out IG/AM to align points (%) to suit them? They are indeed very strong as they are. To give them additional command benefits through the VSF they would (I put my money on it) cruise to a tournament win.

For me, they must live with their current limitations. That's life (40k).

Thanks for all your input and organisation. It is really appreciated.

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Re: 40K VETERANS - CAPE TOWN TYGERVALLEY 21 JULY 2018

Postby Brindley U » Mon Jun 11, 2018 8:09 am

Exactly my thoughts, Norbert!!!!

And exactly what I wanted to avoid. Will take that under advisement!! thanks for the feedback!!!!
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Re: 40K VETERANS - CAPE TOWN TYGERVALLEY 21 JULY 2018

Postby q21 » Mon Jun 11, 2018 10:06 am

Yeah, I'm not a fan of making exceptions to, or tailoring of, the comp rules to fit any particular army. If you're going to play harsh comp rules, play harsh comp rules. Under this ruleset non-zero comp is decent, 20+ comp score is good, 30+ comp score is very good and 40+ comp score is almost impossible. Every army is going to have gripes with it, for example:

- IG cheap troops make it difficult to meet VSF requirements or avoid the -15 for troops points < 2 other BFR type points. (So be it. IG are still the most powerful codex in the game - if you can't get battle points to make up for lost comp points with IG you're not doing it right.)

- IG "Vehicle Squadron" rules mean that for most IG vehicles you're either duplicating at -5 comp for each vehicle after the first or you're picking units of 1 out of a maximum 3 for -3 comp per vehicle. Yes, its very hard (almost impossible) to get a good comp with pure IG, so bite that bullet and then take every other bullet in the world and ram 'em down your opponents' throats.

- 20 man unit max for Chaos Space Marine troops means that you can't put your guys in transports (non-forgeworld ones, at least) without incuring the -3 per unit for being under 50%, since they don't have a transport with capacity above 10.

- You can't field a full Imperial Knights army (now a full, stand-alone army, with their own codex and everything) without taking at least a -30 penalty having no access to troops.

- A number of units have rules/stratagems that specifically encourage playing them in multiples (vindicators with linebreaker bombardment, fire prisms with linked fire, predators with kill shot, etc). Should these be exempt from the duplication penalty since their respective codices are suggesting one style of play while the comp rules are suggesting another?

- Daemons taking to the battlefield as a single force made up of distinct sections dedicated to the various chaos gods is fluffy as all hell, but you get at least a -8 penalty for doing this (detachments from the same codex with different allegiance/cult/regiment/etc.)

Should any of these be exceptions from the comp rules? No, I don't think so. Part of preparation for vets (this year especially) is deciding if you're going to do better working on a list that gets you 15-20 extra comp points, but thereby risks losing some battle points OR play a list more likely to get those 20 battle points but lose out on a few comp points. There's going to be a sweet spot, that sweet spot will be different for different armies, if you find that sweet spot you should come out with a good overall tournament score.

As I've been considering lists and options there is one thing that does bother me, though - the rulings where you get penalized for not taking every option in your chosen detachment(s). The reason is that it makes the comp rules feel internally inconsistent. The need to fill out every option in your detachments pushes you towards a cheesy, min-unit-size, spam the cheap stuff style of list building, but pretty much every other comp rule pushes in the opposite direction. I can't think of an army that can fill out whole detachments without incurring so many other negatives along they way as to make it not worth the effort (unless we all play patrols, but do you really want vets to be about patrol armies?).
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Re: 40K VETERANS - CAPE TOWN TYGERVALLEY 21 JULY 2018

Postby Ultima » Mon Jun 11, 2018 11:33 pm

Cannot agree more with Matt on that last point

Maxing out options feels very counter to the rest of the ruleset
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Re: 40K VETERANS - CAPE TOWN TYGERVALLEY 21 JULY 2018

Postby Skarn » Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:31 am

Due to the clarifications, my list has just gone from 44 to 29 :(
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Re: 40K VETERANS - CAPE TOWN TYGERVALLEY 21 JULY 2018

Postby Brindley U » Thu Jun 14, 2018 11:58 am

Beta Mission Pack.

Not complete -but wanted to get it out so that people can plan.
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Re: 40K VETERANS - CAPE TOWN TYGERVALLEY 21 JULY 2018

Postby mareck » Tue Jun 19, 2018 1:37 pm

For all non Cape town guys.
I have a spare room if anybody needs a place to bunk for the weekend.
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My work here is done.
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Re: 40K VETERANS - CAPE TOWN TYGERVALLEY 21 JULY 2018

Postby Saieden » Sat Jun 23, 2018 3:28 pm

q21 wrote:As I've been considering lists and options there is one thing that does bother me, though - the rulings where you get penalized for not taking every option in your chosen detachment(s). The reason is that it makes the comp rules feel internally inconsistent. The need to fill out every option in your detachments pushes you towards a cheesy, min-unit-size, spam the cheap stuff style of list building, but pretty much every other comp rule pushes in the opposite direction. I can't think of an army that can fill out whole detachments without incurring so many other negatives along they way as to make it not worth the effort (unless we all play patrols, but do you really want vets to be about patrol armies?).


I agree with this too. I think it's good to have tough restrictions to build around, but this is so limiting that every army with more than one detachment is just going to ignore it but those armies are already penalized for their detachment choices, especially if you need the Command Points. To contrast, the VSF gets 20 CP from a single detachment, is not restricted by the number of slots and has a -10 penalty, while 2 Battalions only have 6 HQ choices among them (which it makes it really hard to fit in "secondary" characters like Officers, Warlocks, Neurothropes etc.) and essentially starts with -16 comp score. The more general issue I have with this one though is that the VSF is completely exempt from it, I think that just as there shouldn't army-specific penalties/requirements, there shouldn't be the same kind of thing based on what your army structure is.

Brindley, you've also said previously, with respect to some of the other rules, that we shouldn't be penalized for not taking something, and this seems to run in direct contradiction to that philosophy.
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Re: 40K VETERANS - CAPE TOWN TYGERVALLEY 21 JULY 2018

Postby Brindley U » Sun Jun 24, 2018 1:10 pm

Hey all, thanks for feedback.

Ive been away on a school culture trip in another province of China, so, out of the loop.

In terms of balance, 8th has been a nightmare to balance, and being away from the variations and consistent game play has made it even more difficult to do so.

"I think that just as there shouldn't army-specific penalties/requirements, there shouldn't be the same kind of thing based on what your army structure is. "


In terms of army structure- Vets has always (since comp was a thing) penalised army structure. It's just the degree to which it is done that is changed. I will try make it more fair, and get some form of finalization out in the next day or two.

One thing to note is that although the VSF has good bonuses, the restrictions within it make it much harder to construct a very strong list - and that is the point of it. You can take higher comp, but have less options available to you. That's the idea behind Vets - to force you to make very hard choices.

I will have a look at it tonight and see what changes could be made, if any.

For info sake, the VSF will definitely incur a -10 penalty!
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Re: 40K VETERANS - CAPE TOWN TYGERVALLEY 21 JULY 2018

Postby Brindley U » Mon Jun 25, 2018 7:39 am

I've had a chance to review this.

A single brigade (easily manageable in 3k points) will have a minimum deduction of 2 points.
It's unlikely that people can fill out all the elites and troop slots though, so its likely to be a probable minimum of -4 points.

Given the fact that this nets you 15 CP and has no other restrictions, I think the Brigade is possibly one of the most powerful build types.

Given that is the case, I've tweaked the points to reflect this.

With the tournament now being a month away, and unless a glaring error is found, there will be no further amendments to composition.
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Re: 40K VETERANS - CAPE TOWN TYGERVALLEY 21 JULY 2018

Postby q21 » Mon Jun 25, 2018 8:48 am

• -5 if you have not taken every optional unit in your primary detachment
(Dedicated Transports not counted)
o Only -3 if you have not taken every optional unit and your primary detachment is a Brigade. (Dedicated Transports not counted)
• -3 for each detachment after the primary that does not have every optional choice selected.

A little sad that these are still in, but so be it.

Ancient Necron Technology – 3
Mindshackle Scarabs may be used on an enemy that has to take a morale check. The check may not be automatically passed, may not be re-rolled with a race-specific special ability, and must be taken at the unit's natural, unmodified leadership value as listed on their datasheet.

No once per game limit or "tech site still alive" requirement on this? Even at 3 cp it's immensely powerful. Rinse and repeat deletion of massed infantry units is just rude. Orks and Tyranids are especially hard hit, but they aren't alone.
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